JOSH: Hello and welcome to Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg, a podcast about ideas that matter. I'm Josh Castle, the producer of the podcast, and I'm so glad you've joined us today. In this episode, Spencer speaks with Nick Gray about strategies for hosting great events, and how to help people engage and feel welcome in unfamiliar social spaces.

SPENCER: Nick, welcome.

NICK: Thanks. Great to chat with you today.

SPENCER: Do you think that people should host a lot more events than they do now?

NICK: Yes, [laughs] that's like my whole thing. Yeah, I think people should host a lot more events than they do now.

SPENCER: Why?

NICK: I think that it's interesting from your 'collection of people' perspective, from the idea of building a network before you need it, for social skills, for public speaking, for dating, for relationships, even just maintaining friendships. I think it's clutch.

SPENCER: I think a lot of people imagine it to be a big deal to throw an event. Do you see it that way?

NICK: I was talking to someone the other day, and they said, "Oh yeah, I grew up in a household that hosts. That's why I host parties, because I learned it from my parents." And I think that a lot of people think that, "Oh, I didn't grow up hosting, and I didn't really ever learn how to host," or, "It's too much work. My apartment isn't big enough, my home isn't big enough. It's messy. It's far away." There's a lot of excuses, and I've probably heard all of them. I think there is another way that you can host that's like the MVP — the minimum viable party — that there are ways that you don't have to make it into a huge kerfuffle.

SPENCER: Before we get more into reasons to host, what do you think the strongest argument is against hosting events? Surely, there are some people that shouldn't be inviting people to their home.

NICK: Yeah, I think really the strongest argument against hosting events would be if you are laser-focused building a startup, and hosting an event for you, you're just really not going to connect with any of the types of people that you need to. Say, for example, the only type of people that you need to connect with, because the startup is your most important thing, are venture capital investors based in Silicon Valley, and you happen to live in Des Moines, then, yeah, I could understand how maybe that type of person would not want to host. That's probably the best argument against.

SPENCER: What about somebody who's just really introverted and maybe feels like, "Okay, I've got my few close friends, and I feel comfortable around them, but I don't really feel like I need to socialize with lots of other people."

NICK: I think it's tough to convince someone about the importance of building a network or making new friends or having more connections, and so I wouldn't try to convince someone who's like, "Nah, I don't want that. That's not for me." I more often hear from people that are like, "Oh, man, I wish I had those things. I'm feeling a little bit lonely. I just don't know what the answer is."

SPENCER: I think one thing people fear about hosting events is that nobody's gonna turn up. How do you think about getting around that barrier?

NICK: Oh, my God, that's the number one thing. I have thoughts on it, but I'd be curious: how do you collect your RSVPs now? Are you using a platform, or do you just send out and collect RSVPs on email?

SPENCER: Well, as you probably know, like you, I throw a lot of events. Honestly, I just use email now, which is almost ridiculous, because there are so many tools now, but I've just stopped using the different tools.

NICK: So will you know how many people are going to show up when you host one of your events, because people write back and they say yes, and then you have a mental idea?

SPENCER: I just keep a little notepad. When someone replies via email, I'll just add it to the notepad.

NICK: I would challenge you to think about using one of the free online RSVP platforms. The ones I like are Mixily or Partiful, or all the nerds use Luma. I find that that's such a key thing, especially for new hosts, to give them the confidence to know who's going to come, but also from the advanced host perspective of giving people the social proof of making a commitment that they're going to come to this event and then actually publicly acknowledging that on an RSVP page. But yeah, your question was around how that is the number one fear for new hosts. The number one fear is that nobody will show up. Or worse than that, only two or three people will show up, and that it will be terribly awkward.

SPENCER: Zero people is almost better, right? Because at least nobody knows. [laughs] The worst number of people to show up is three or something,

NICK: That is really the worst. I remember this happened to me once when I was learning how to host events. I was wishy-washy at the start time of my event. I sent out the invite only two days before. And for the first two hours, there were only two other people there. I would have preferred that nobody was there, because now there's two people there and it's so much worse, and I'm waiting for other people to show up. It was this tension and anxiety that was terrible. Many people have this post-party trauma. They have some sort of party trauma where they've tried to host an event and it has gone poorly, and they have decided after that that hosting events is not a thing for them. And I think that you and I have learned enough that, through this conversation, maybe we can convince them that there are some better ways to almost guarantee a slam-dunk, that their event will be successful, insomuch that success, in my opinion, is defined by reaching a critical mass number of attendees.

SPENCER: Yeah, and just to clarify: I've used a lot of different tools. I used Particle, Evite, Paperless Post, et cetera, for smaller events. Let's say I'm targeting 25 people. I prefer doing it via email, so then they're basically saying to me directly, "Oh, I'm coming to this." For larger events, I would definitely use a tool like that. If it was an event of maybe more than 40, I would definitely want one of those tools.

NICK: Yeah, yeah. That's fair. I'd still encourage listeners to do the double opt-in, which is to say, "Hey, I'm hosting an event on this date and this time. May I send you the info?" Someone says, "Oh, yeah, send me the info." And then that's when you'd send them the details to sign up on RSVP, because it allows you a little bit easier to mass message your guests and send reminders and things like that. You're probably doing all those manually, and you have systems and ways to send those reminder messages, maybe use Google calendar invites, things like that.

SPENCER: Talk more about this double opt-in approach. Because this is not how people are used to sending out invites. Usually they just go on Evite or something and just hit send.

NICK: Yeah, my double opt-in is a hybrid of probably what you do and what most people do; whereas, if most people just send out a mass blast to a WhatsApp group, to a group text, to a Facebook group, to a tweet or something, "Hey, I'm hosting an event. Sign up here." Mine is, instead, you're going through and you're inviting each and every person, one-to-one. You're sending an email, a text, a DM, using a message like, "Hey, I'm hosting an event on Thursday night from six to eight p.m. at my place. May I send you the info? We've got a great group of people coming. We'd love to have you." That ask of, "May I send you the info?" is a little bit of a lighter ask than, "Do you want to come?" which is very specific and direct and implies commitment. But it also, on their side, they're probably generally available at that time. Then when they write back and they say yes, then you would say, "Perfect. Here's all the info. You can sign up to RSVP there." Then I send them to a page that has the sign-up, the RSVP, plus additional info: the start time, the end time, the address, what to expect. I do have one other little step that comes before that. For someone like yourself who has a very warm list — and that warm list means you've hosted events, people know that you do good events — you, Spencer, are not worried that nobody will show up. But for a new host, they are very worried that nobody will show up. And so for a new host, I actually suggest that their first five to ten outbound messages, change the text a little bit and they say something more like, "Hey, I'm thinking of hosting a happy hour on Wednesday night from six to eight p.m. at my place. If I do it, would you come?" And that first message gets sent out to five or ten people.

SPENCER: These would be closer friends, right?

NICK: Yes, it's closer friends. It's what I call your core group. It's your neighbors, your close acquaintances. It's people you know well. It's the people that, if only these five people show up, you would still have a good time. Maybe it wouldn't be a huge gathering, but you'd still have a good time if only these five showed up. And you try to get five of those yeses first before you actually say, "Okay, now I'm going to host the party. Now I can invite a wider circle," of a group of people that I call your great guests, that some others may call your acquaintances, your weak ties, whatever. It's people you don't know as well, but you will leverage that first group — your core group — as social proof, because you'll have them all sign up on RSVP so people see that others are coming, and to give you that confidence to know that, "Okay, at least these people are coming." Because a lot of people don't know; they're worried. They're like, "Oh, my God, can anybody come?" And so this is where you test the waters. Anything that you would modify in that process?

SPENCER: No, I think it's a really smart strategy. The one thing I was going to ask a follow-up question about is timing because, even if you have a decent number of people coming, if the event is relatively long, you can have this very awkward period where, the first hour, there's three people there, even if eventually, there's 20 people there.

NICK: Yeah, that's what I call the awkward zone, and it's why I really advocate for two-hour parties. I wrote a book called The Two-Hour Cocktail Party, and I really advocate for two-hour social gatherings. You can definitely extend the gathering to go late. But I find that, when you have a two-hour scheduled event, clearly stating a start time and an end time, it really compresses the awkward zone down into a more manageable ten to 20 minutes, instead of the average 30 to 45 to 60 to even 90 minutes sometimes.

SPENCER: Yeah, I think that also is really wise. If it's open-ended when it's going to end, in different cultures or different norms, when to show up... Like in New York, I've been to an event an hour after the start time, and I was the second person there. [laughs]

NICK: Oh, my gosh, this happened to me. I was going to my friend Lindsay's party. It was down in Houston, and it was her birthday party, and so I was gonna get there on time. And I texted her ten minutes before, saying, "Hey, I'm around the corner. Do you want me to grab anything? Do you need ice?" And she was like, "What? What are you doing? Why are you coming over now? I still have to shower, I have to get ready." I said, "Well, your party starts at seven." She's like, "Yeah, but don't come at seven. People are gonna come at eight. Come at eight." And I was so frustrated because I was like, "Well, if you want us to come at eight, why don't you say come at eight?" So there are these complicated social norms of when you're expected to show up based on the invitation time. A few ways to get around that that I have found is in setting a start time and clearly communicating an end time, as well as giving a little bit of an agenda. Even if you don't stick to the agenda, giving people an idea of what to expect throughout that two-hour block helps people know, "Oh, my God, if I show up an hour late, I'm gonna miss half the party."

SPENCER: I think there's this funny incentive thing that happens where people don't want to be one of the first to arrive usually, because it's more likely to be awkward. And so they're like, "Okay, well, I don't want to be one of the first to arrive, so I've got to push it back a bit." But then maybe they go to a party one time and they're still one of the first to arrive. So like, "Okay, I have to come even later." And it's like everyone learns to come later and later to things, which is really not ideal.

NICK: In my opinion, it actually doesn't serve you. I prefer to show up to a party early rather than late and I'll tell you why. Two main reasons: number one, you get more quality time with the host if you show up early. The reality is, if you show up to a party an hour late, the host is in damage control mode and host mode; their head is not in the game on creating connections and having conversation. The second reason I prefer to show up to a party early rather than late is that I like to see the party form around me. Especially for introverts — I don't know if this is others' experience — I find it very intimidating to show up to a loud, crowded room where I am entering as an outsider, where my energy level is completely in my head, and now I'm expected to go from zero in my head to 100 social, striking up conversations, things like that. I prefer to show up on time to an event and see the party build around me and have others arrive and things like that.

SPENCER: Are you an introvert?

NICK: I would consider myself an ambivert, if that makes sense. I present as an extrovert, and people are often shocked, but I do get drained from social events. At my own parties, I will sneak away to the bedroom or to a bathroom and scroll on my phone for a little bit and just recharge my social batteries.

SPENCER: It's so funny, you and I are almost exactly the same this way. I'm also an ambivert. I also escape during my own parties [laughs] and will take a break in the middle of the party.

NICK: Right? Yes! I do that, too, because as a host, you are always in on mode. Even when we're talking to people, our eyes are scanning the room. We have this hyper sort of awareness to those that are arriving and things like that. Yeah, it's kind of hard. I don't think there's any shame in that.

SPENCER: Another reason I like to get to a party relatively early is I like to go up to the host, chat with them for a few minutes and then say, "By the way, is there anyone coming that you especially think I should meet, or that I'd especially enjoy chatting to?" And I find that's really effective; rather than talk to people semi-randomly, it gives you pointers of who you might want to meet at the party.

NICK: That is a pro move. That is an absolute pro move. It's a little hard to do during the party, but I love showing up early. I'm trying to think to myself... Yeah, I would love that; if a guest said that to me; I would really like it. I'm constantly trying to do it, but if somebody actually asked, then I think it's nice. I also think you have to do it in a nice way. I remember one time this woman did it to me at a party, and it gave me a feeling that she was like, "I'm better than everybody else. Who should I talk to?" And so I'd be curious what language you use when you ask the host that.

SPENCER: I especially like the language, "Is there anyone here you think I'd especially enjoy meeting?"

NICK: Yeah, I think that's good. I think the way she did it was like, "Who's the coolest person in this room?" [Spencer laughs.] Some way that I was like, "Oh, I see what you're asking. But the way you asked it really rubbed me the wrong way." Those are the pro moves. When a host can create these introductions, when a host can help people at the party, that is the role of the host, and that is why we need to host gatherings. I think it's also important to note that my experience in hosting trends towards gatherings in which not everyone knows each other. This may be obvious to you, but I want to state it. If you are hosting a party where everyone went to high school together and knows everybody's name and all this, you need very little structure. You do not need a lot of programming. You can simply host this as a gathering. But if your goal is to mix your friend buckets, to introduce different people, then I think that's where you benefit from this advanced, semi-strategic planning.

SPENCER: I've only attended one of your parties in New York, and it was a freaking amazing party. The space was super cool. You had nice icebreakers. I think icebreakers can be cringey, but you did a really good job of making them fast but still engaging. You had multiple performances throughout the night. [both laugh] You had snacks and drinks. So I was like, "Damn, this guy knows how to throw a party!" [laughs] You're definitely at a very elite level, obviously. But how do you think about adding structure to events for someone that's newer at it?

NICK: I think that a lot of what people want at an event where they don't know people is a little bit of safety and security and some natural opportunities where the host bears the burden of awkwardness of making those introductions. And so some changes that I have made since I wrote my book, The Two-Hour Cocktail Party, are: number one, I tend to use the phrase 'icebreakers' less, especially in America where that phrase has a little bit of a cringey connotation. Instead, I just say, "Hey, we're going to do a few rounds of introductions," and I lean into the why of why we're doing it. I make sure to tell people, before and after, things like, "Hey, we're going to do a round of intros. You know, I've been to a lot of parties, and I never really know who's in the room. We have so many incredible people here that I want to do a quick round of intros, just so you know who's here. And maybe that will give you an excuse to go say hi to somebody new." I think that is a helpful thing. It's like a roll call of who's there, and that helps certain people. Spencer, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. My old formula from my book really leaned into doing whole group intros where everybody goes around the circle. Ideally, it's a small gathering; 15 to 22 people is what I think is ideal. But it's where everybody goes around the circle and says their name, what they do for work or how they spend their time, and then one variable. And that variable can be something as easy as what's one of your favorite things for breakfast, or another type of icebreaker that I call a value additive icebreaker, where everybody's answer adds to the room. And I can give examples of those. But my old strategy was, I used to do a lot of those, two or three during the two-hour gathering. I'm now playing around with a lot more small groups — putting people into smaller groups, groups as small as three and as large as maybe five — putting people into those small groups at the very beginning of the gathering to give them an easier ramp up to the public speaking sense of what this is. That's what I'm working on now. I'd be curious to know if you've experimented with that, or if you have thoughts on that.

SPENCER: I use small groups a lot at my events. My events tend to be social experiments, so they're very strange compared to a regular cocktail party. Generally, my events have a very specific theme, generally some kind of strange set of rules. Small groups work really, really well. I think they tend to create much stronger connections between people. If you're in a group of five people even, all doing intros, you may have enough time to feel like you remember each person in that group. It maybe feels more comfortable than going and chatting with one of them after. If you're just in a giant group, I think a lot of people don't necessarily feel like they can go up to one of those people after and they certainly won't remember most of the people who intro'd themselves.

NICK: Yeah, the more that I think about it, I'm worried that I've led people astray. My formula works. It does work. And I've had over 500 people verify that they've hosted a gathering for the very first time using this. But the small groups are powerful. And I'll give you one example of what I'm doing. I went to a friend's wedding a few months ago, and they did an activity where they broke us all out, and they had us in groups of three, and they had us share our life story in two minutes. The host did a good job of saying the why, and two minutes is a very long time to talk, as I'm sure you know; two minutes is a long time to talk. And I found it to be one of the most interesting, powerful... The whole thing was done in six or seven minutes and, yet, I felt like I now had this connection with these two other people, and it made me dive in a little bit more to this thesis I'm working on, which is that people's happiness with an event or a gathering is nearly directly correlated to the amount of time that they get to speak themselves. Meaning, if they're coming to a lecture, on average, I would estimate that they would leave that event feeling a little bit bored. That's just me, because I'm bored with lectures. But if I get to go to an event or a dinner or something, and I get to participate a lot, I think that the success is higher and people's perceived happiness is going to be larger on balance, on the whole. What do you think about that?

SPENCER: Well, I certainly think interactivity makes things way more engaging. I've thrown a lot of events that were lecture type events, and I do think that people tend to be fairly bored during them. They do, as a benefit, offer something to talk about. So I do feel like, if you have a lecture, after the lecture, the dynamic is better. People are more mingling with each other. They feel more comfortable raising topics. So it acts as a way to get people talking, but it seems like not a very good way to get to that end.

NICK: Yes, yes, yes. And you know why I'm so happy to nerd out with you about this? Because I feel like I can bounce my silly hare-brained ideas off you, and you'll tell me if they're legit. I think the events come alive after your lectures because of this event thing that I call 'compress and release.' It's exactly what it sounds like. Compress, you hold down, nobody's talking, you're leading, you're facilitating, you're speaking, you're lecturing. And then you release into this unstructured time. And as you compress and release, that energy, that want for conversation builds up, and then you release it into this unstructured time, and there's a lot more conversations happening. A lot of my events use that compress and release. The compression is structure and facilitation, and the release is this unstructured time, what most parties are; most parties are just unstructured time. So I think it's a healthy balance of that, to manage the ebbs and flows of the energy and the loudness levels in the room.

SPENCER: Yeah, I think a lot of conferences get this wrong. They'll try to overschedule things where, actually, you want to have alternating scheduled and unscheduled.

NICK: I hosted a birthday conference back in December that was amazing. It was the best thing I've ever done. I built in a healthy amount of unstructured time. So we'd have an hour of structured small group discussion and then an hour-long break. That's what everybody says, right? They go to a conference. It's all about the time in the hallways. It's all about the unstructured time. And so balancing that out through the day was something I was really proud of.

SPENCER: Going back to icebreakers for a moment, you threw in there curveball questions like: what did you have for breakfast this morning? Or what's your favorite breakfast cereal, or whatever. Why do you throw in funny questions like that?

NICK: The way I think about these icebreaker questions is like green, yellow, red. A green level icebreaker is when there's no rapport built up in the group. People are a little bit awkward. They just need a softball question to get talking. I like the breakfast question because it shows a little bit about somebody's personality. It's easy to answer. It doesn't cause people to lock up. An example of a bad question in my mind would be, what is your favorite book? That's a bad question because it's definitive (favorite), it's subjective. There's a little bit of judgment that might come from people, and it can cause people to lock up, "Oh my God, what's my absolute favorite book?" One way to modify that would be to ask, "What is one of your favorite books?" or something like that. But the breakfast one, I've tried this thousands of times with various groups, and it tends to work, in that the purpose is not really to know what one of somebody's favorite breakfasts is, but it's just to get them talking and to express a little bit about their personality.

SPENCER: And what about yellow and red questions?

NICK: Yellow and red questions are more advanced. They're later on in the event, when people have warmed up a little bit socially. One of my favorites to use at the end of an event is what I call a 'value additive icebreaker.' And that's where everybody's answer will add some value to the room. So if I was hosting this in New York City, a good example of a value additive icebreaker might be, "What is one of your favorite or secret spots in New York City?" It could be a dog park, or a biking path. It could be a park you like to go to, a small business you want to support, a really cool cafe. What's a favorite spot that you want to shine a little bit of light on? It could be a museum that's open late, something like that. What's just a cool little city hack? That's one example of a value additive. The other one that's my go-to is, "What is a great piece of media that you have consumed recently?" That could be a podcast like this. It could be a video you watched on YouTube. It could be a documentary, a book, a TV show you binged. Just what's a great piece of media that you've consumed recently? Those icebreakers are value additive because everybody gives answers that sort of lights up the room. And they're like, "Oh, I've heard about that movie," "Oh my gosh, I have to read that book," or, "Oh, I totally want to go to that cafe." And it gives people these ideas of new things where, when you do this towards the end of your event, people leave with a ton of new ideas, meeting a lot of new people, having this energy that they've left your event better than they showed up with.

SPENCER: I think that's really clever to have ones that add value to the rest of the room. Another kind of icebreaker I like are ones that tell you who you should be talking to. For example, let's say an icebreaker like, "What's a topic you could talk about for hours and really enjoy?" and then you hear someone mention something that you're really interested in. You're like, "Ah, okay, I know to go talk to that person."

NICK: I like that. I like that question. What's a topic that you could talk about for hours? And the idea is that then, that prompts them to go up and chat with that person about it later.

SPENCER: Yeah. Someone's like, "Oh, I'm really interested in that." Now they have something to ask that person about.

NICK: And it's easy for the other person to talk about it, because they've said, "I can talk about this for hours."

SPENCER: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] It's maybe one of their most comfortable subjects. Actually, that big group thing where you're standing in front of everyone, when I was younger and had a lot of social anxiety, my heart would literally start palpitating during that. [laughs] Now less so; maybe it still occasionally will in some settings, but now a lot less so. That's actually pretty darn stressful for a lot of people, I think.

NICK: I think it's really stressful. I dated a woman who had social anxiety, and she really opened my eyes to the fear that goes through somebody when you have to speak. For example, it's very hard for them to listen to other people's answers when they are waiting to talk. And I have a whole chapter in my book about how to properly facilitate these rounds of intros to mitigate that anxiety as much as possible. For example, I hate when people do this: "Okay, everybody, we're gonna do a round of icebreakers. And Jeremy, you go first," and they just point to some random person and this random person has to go first. It's a little terrifying, and so I have some advice for people, which is that, one, the host always goes first. The host demonstrates; they model the behavior, and then they ask the person to their left or their right whether they can go next. So they say, "Hey, I'll go first, and then can I go to you next?" And usually the person says yes, but sometimes they'll say, "No, no, no, I'm not ready." You say, "No problem at all." You turn the other way, "Then can we go to you next?" Hopefully, they say yes. You say, "Great. We'll go to me first, then them, and we'll go around the circle this way," giving people an idea which way the icebreaker is going, being very clear with your leadership and facilitation to eliminate that anxiety of not knowing what's going to happen. Those are some little things that you can do to make these icebreakers be a little less cringey. And I think what we mean when we say cringey is just the fear of the unknown, almost.

SPENCER: Besides adding a little bit of structure and planning the event in advance, what are some other things you do to make an event more fun and more comfortable that others could apply, even if they're not experienced hosts?

NICK: I think one of the more controversial things that I do is, I really recommend people to host on Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, at least in America. I find that Tuesday and Wednesday evenings are a lot easier to get people to attend, because they're less socially competitive. And for a new host who doesn't have a warm list like Spencer... Folks know that if they're going to one of Spencer's events, it's going to be a good event, and that is going to take prime place in their calendar. For a new host, you might not have that benefit, and you're much more likely to get bumped for something else to come up, for something to be pre-scheduled. I find that Tuesday and Wednesday nights are generally more open, especially when you give people two or three weeks' notice. So hosting on a Tuesday or Wednesday night, I think is good. Doing that two-hour time frame, I think is also good. I also recommend and advocate for people to end their party when things are going well. Some people are shocked by this idea, but I want you to end things when they're going well, and not let the party dwindle down and just fizzle out, almost. But I think that the idea to end it starts with setting the expectations that it will be ended, by setting an end time, by listing a little bit of an agenda, by making something like a last call 15 minutes before it's scheduled to end, letting people know that it's a good time to exchange contact information or say hey to somebody they didn't get to chat to, and then at the scheduled end time, making some sort of thank you or announcement. Now that ending officially doesn't have to be exactly on the dot, kick everybody out. But what we want to do is, we want to give people the permission to leave who want to leave. Because has that ever happened to you where you go to an event but you want to leave, but you don't want to be the first to go? And there's that feeling of like, "Oh God, I don't want to leave yet. I want to but I don't want to be the first. It's going to be such a buzzkill." And so we let people — whether they have childcare issues, they need to get home for work, they have other plans — we give them the excuse, saying, "Thank you so much, everybody, for coming. This is the scheduled end time, so if you have to go, I want to say thank you so much for coming. We'll start to wrap up now." And at that point, I'll turn the lights up, I'll turn the music down, and start to generally tidy up the place. If people don't get the hint and, 15 minutes later, they're still hanging out, then I'll make a very nice note to them. I'll say, "Hey, thank you, guys, so much for coming. I'm trying to wind down. We can make our way out." But I also will have a backup location that they could go to. "Hey, if you guys want to keep chatting, right around the corner, there's a really cool bar, and some people are going there afterwards." That helps to end. I find that the benefit to ending on time is that you end on a high note and you leave people with the feeling of, "Wow, I didn't want that to end," which means that you're so much more likely to get them to want to come back to your next event. I think that's an underappreciated part of hosting that really the biggest benefits come from those who can make hosting a habit, and it's something that you do regularly, not just once a year.

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SPENCER: There were some interesting studies that looked at what people remember about an experience, and they found the most memorable pieces were the peak of it — the best part of it or worst part of it — and the end of it. It's compatible with what you're saying, that if you end on a high note, maybe they'll actually remember the party more positively than if the last 20 minutes are kind of boring.

NICK: Have you tweaked that at all, in your own hosting, of how to end it?

SPENCER: Well, sometimes I use a hard cutoff time, and then I basically just tell people that we're gonna wrap up. And I try to tell them ten, 15 minutes before. Sometimes, though, I'm actually okay with letting it just dwindle and turning it into almost something else, like turning it into more like a casual hangout where maybe there's six people just chatting, and that's okay, and that could still be quite nice; I think; it's just a different thing.

NICK: Yeah, yeah, it is more of an advanced move. One of the reasons that I also suggest people to end their party on time is that, because I'm very tuned into the mindset of somebody the day after, and my mission is to get more people to host for the first time, I want someone, the next day, to feel energized and excited, and not drained because people stayed over till two a.m. and their house is a mess, and they're hung over. And so a lot of my work is around giving people an easy, manageable, bite-sized gathering that they can host and feel success from. And after they follow that a few times and really feel a sense of mastery, then, of course, they can modify it and let the party go, shift to more of a social gathering, things like that.

SPENCER: Do you have any tips for during the party, if it feels like things are maybe flagging a little bit, like people aren't talking that much or not mingling?

NICK: I'd say that I probably do a lot of the stuff that you do. I'm looking for movement within the room. I'm looking for new conversations, ways that I can encourage that. If I'm going to lead a round of intros, I will move them from one part of the room to the other. It can be as simple as, if everybody's in the kitchen and there's a little bit of room in a different spot ten feet away, then I'll physically tell them, "Hey everybody, we're going to do a round of intros. Let's all go stand right over there. Meet me over on that side of the room, and we're going to do a quick round of intros over there." So I will physically move people throughout the party. Sometimes at events, there can be a bottleneck — for example, in the kitchen or near the bar — and I will physically move people who I feel comfortable with. I will grab them, say, "Spencer, Diane, would you guys come follow me? Come stand over here. I just need to move people around a little bit." That's an advanced move. Not everybody feels comfortable with that, but that's one way, physically moving people and encouraging them to move when you do these different rounds of intros. There are other little modules that you can do, such as speed icebreakers or small groups or lightning talks that are smaller, five- to ten-minute modules that are a little more advanced, but I like to add those in on that idea of compress and release. So if you are feeling that the energy is dwindling at the gathering, that's generally a sign that you need to add in a little bit of facilitation, to do some sort of an activity, to tamper down the energy and then let it build up to release it into the unstructured time.

SPENCER: During the early part of a party, I feel as the host that my biggest responsibility is to see that new people, as they come in, get integrated, that they don't just end up standing around awkwardly, not knowing who to talk to. I'm wondering whether that's something that you think about, or if you have tips for that.

NICK: Yeah, I like to give people at my gatherings little duties. So I'll put somebody in charge of the bar, maybe put somebody in charge of coat check. Occasionally, I'll have somebody in charge of high fives. And as somebody will come, I'll say, "Oh, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. You can drop your coat over there with Jeremy. Go grab a drink over at the bar with Susan, and then see Tyler for a high five real quick," giving them waypoints of where to go. And then the obvious thing of just actually physically walking them and bringing them to people, "Hey guys, this is Jeremy. He just came. Can I add him to your group? Will you guys make him feel welcome?" I find that folks are very receptive to that.

SPENCER: I remember a meetup I went to once and, when I arrived, everyone was just in little groups. Literally nobody even looked at me. And I was just like, "This is so unwelcoming," and it's a sort of thing where it makes someone never want to come again, because it's just so awkward when you're standing there and you don't know anyone. So I think if you can just get someone into a group conversation, say, "Hey, this is Anne," and get them talking to someone, it's just so much more comfortable.

NICK: I think that's what Priya Parker speaks about in her book, Your Guide to the Art of Gathering. Did you read that book?

SPENCER: No, I never have.

NICK: Oh, it's a really good book. And she speaks about that, as far as what we're fighting against is the idea of lazy hosting. Lazy hosting is the host who's too cool to care. It's the host who's like, "Oh man, I don't want to do intros. No, no, dude, I don't want to do name tags. It's just a cool party; I just want to chill." And that is actually a real form of lazy leadership where the host is not taking an active role to create those new introductions, to form new conversation groups, to help people reach the goal, which, if that's not your goal — to help your friends meet your other friends — that's okay. Once again, if you're just hosting a party where everybody knows each other 100,000%, then that's fine. Maybe you need less facilitation. But I find the most interesting gatherings are when I mix my different friend groups and buckets and random acquaintances. It's also when they get the most benefit out of it. You and I, I think, have very strong, robust networks because people see us as connectors, and that comes from hosting events like this.

SPENCER: A trick that a friend of mine used at a party — and I'm curious to get your thoughts on it — was that, before the party, for each person coming, she wrote down another person she thought they would really like who was also coming. And then when people arrived, they got their assigned person they were supposed to find. It gave them a little quest. And I thought that was really cool, because it gave you something to do, but also gave you a particular person that you didn't know that she thought you would really enjoy.

NICK: I love doing that. I have a video about that on my YouTube channel, which we can include in the show notes. And I will often do this, make these cards for half or more of the guests. Don't feel that you have to do it with everybody. And I will add a couple of names on there. So I won't just do one; I'll add a few names of who they might like to meet. And I find that those cards are really cool, and people really appreciate it. They feel seen. It does take a little bit of time. It takes a little bit of planning, but it pays dividends big time.

SPENCER: Before we finish this topic, what are some big mistakes you see people make that is just a kind of thing that seems like you should do it, but maybe you shouldn't?

NICK: I think lack of reminder messages. I was invited to a friend's 40th birthday last year, and I think I got the invite two or three weeks in advance. It was obviously a big life moment. And I realized that, as we came up to the event, there was not a single reminder message that was sent. It was just the initial invitation. I'd assumed that it was still happening, but there were no reminder messages. Those reminder messages really help to keep your event top of mind. And especially in larger cities that are socially competitive, where there's other events going on, for a new host, you really want to show people that you care, that you're a host who cares, and that you're taking this event seriously. And so I actually advocate for people to send three reminder messages: one that's sent about a week before the event, another one that's three or four days before the event, and the final one the morning of the event. Those reminder messages really help to keep your event top of mind, send logistical information, set the expectations to arrive on time, give people what they need to know, and just to build anticipation and excitement. So I think one mistake that people make is that lack of reminder messages to keep it top of mind. The other thing is, I still go to events that don't use name tags, and it sounds silly. It might sound cheesy, but this is a hill that I will die on, which is the importance of using name tags at social events where not everyone knows each other.

SPENCER: I literally don't think I've ever used name tags at one of my events. So tell me, why am I making a mistake?

NICK: I'd be curious to know why you don't use name tags.

SPENCER: Mainly it's because I think that people's names are something that should be introduced later in a conversation, once you care about getting to know someone, if that makes sense. What's your argument for name tags?

NICK: I have a lot, but I'll start with one that I think you would connect with, which is that the name tags really serve as a visual unifier for the group, that it's almost like a sports jersey. When you have a name tag, it shows that we're all on the same team. Not everyone here knows each other, and this is not a party of cliques. We are all equal and those name tags symbolize that, that it's okay to go up and strike up a new conversation. If I was going to one of your events as a first time attendee as someone who never went, knowing that you host a lot of events, I'd be thinking like, "Oh my gosh, I'm the only one here that's here for the first time. I'm an outsider. What's going on?" Name tags really help to level the playing field. And so from that aspect, I think it's good.

SPENCER: Yeah, I like that. It opens up this idea that, "Hey, we're here to meet other people that we don't know already."

NICK: Yeah, yeah. And once again, that's the purpose of my events. If your events really are more of a social experiment and meeting the other guests is not a priority for you, then I think you could devalue it. But I have found that the easiest way for the average person to host a high quality event is when their guests and attendees can mix and mingle and meet several new people. That's really the purpose of the events that I advocate for, and so name tags are just essential for that. The second less important reason, I guess, for guys like you and I who have easy names to remember — Spencer and Nick — is that, for those that have foreign names or harder names, I think we can't really underestimate how helpful having a name tag is, that for some people, the majority of their conversation is saying their name again and again. I just spent a few weeks over in India, and I heard names that I had never heard before. And I've been around and I've hung out with people like that that have very unique names, and time after time, they have to say their name two or three times over, what their name is, somebody doesn't hear it, something like that. So name tags, as woo-woo as it sounds, it is a more inclusive thing for some people to attend. I think name tags also just help ease the conversations where you don't have to feel the guilt about remembering somebody's name. I'm terrible with names myself. It's easier to use someone's name in conversation when you see it right there in front of you. They say the sweetest sound to anyone's ears is the sound of their own name. I do believe that, and so I think it just helps grease the wheels a little bit to make these conversations, these introductions, happen.

SPENCER: That makes sense. You've definitely nudged me a little bit. I don't know if I'm gonna use name tags, but I'll consider it more. [Nick laughs] And actually, final question about your events: do you do a follow up after and, if so, what's the purpose of that?

NICK: My thought is a little shifted on follow-ups. I take a group photo towards the end of my event. I usually do it during that last call or when I'm wrapping things up, and I will send a follow-up thank you message the next morning with the group photo attached. But I tend to not... I'm sure you have probably heard this. "Oh, we should create a WhatsApp group," we should do this, that or the other. The follow-up. I think the event is a single-serving moment. Is your question about a follow-up to some of the attendees, or is your question about the follow-up to the group as a whole?

SPENCER: Well, what I like to do for smaller events is send an email saying it was great to see you all. Now you all have each other's emails in case you want to get in touch, to facilitate people reaching out to people that maybe they met and thought were interesting but didn't have a chance to get their information. I don't do that for larger events just because of privacy reasons.

NICK: For my events, what I get people to do is something called guest bios before the event, and that is a list of who's coming, maybe a link to their socials, and one or two sentences about them. And I try to get people to write that up for half or more of the attendees, and that goes out in reminder messages two and three. Those guest bios really help to build anticipation, give new access points for conversations to people. To help those that have a little social anxiety or feel like introverts, they have an idea of who's coming and what they might be able to talk to them about. And so for me, that serves as the contact details and information. There is a very advanced thing that I do that crushes but it's a little hard to pull off. It's called the 24-hour reply-all thread, and it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a thread that I'll send the morning after the party where I put everybody on cc, and for 24 hours, I tell them, you can reply all to this and blast the group with links to your favorite media, a charity you support, your small business that you like, your own projects, your social media links, if you're going to something this weekend that you want to invite others to. But that really only is for 24 hours. The reason I say it's advanced is because you really have to facilitate this and set it up at the party itself to say something like, "Hey, everybody, tomorrow morning, I'm going to send an email out to everybody on cc. If you don't want to be included, see me before you leave or send me a note. But I'm going to send a message out to everybody here, and for 24 hours only, you can write back and spam the thread with links to your Spotify, your SoundCloud, whatever you want, cool things you're going to this weekend, invite somebody to something, pimp your startup, whatever you want. But it's 24 hours only, so please don't keep the thread going." And this is a way for everybody to stay in touch and connect afterwards. And oh, my God, Spencer, when I've done that and done it well, that crushes. People love it.

SPENCER: Oh, it's really interesting. I don't think I've ever seen someone do that before.

NICK: It takes facilitation. It can fall flat if you don't properly set it up at the party. And where it falls flat — and the reason I don't recommend new hosts do it — is they'll barely mention it, or they'll forget and then they send it the next morning, and people don't know that they're supposed to do it, and then it just falls flat; only one or two or sometimes nobody will do it. So you really have to facilitate it and set it up at the party to get people's buy-in, and sometimes to even nudge people the morning after.

SPENCER: What was the most challenging event you ever threw?

NICK: For my 37th birthday, I hosted something like a birthday conference, and it was challenging because I just over-programmed it. I invited too many people. I tried to pack the agenda with way too much stuff. It was a logistical nightmare. I'd say that was the hardest one. One of the craziest events I hosted was actually on a snowstorm night in New York City. I was co-hosting it with somebody else and, with most events in a big city like New York, maybe you invite 40 people and you assume that 20 would come. For this instance, I think we invited 40 people, and 50 people came because there was a snowstorm and, whether work was gonna be canceled the next day or something, it just caused everybody to go out. Oh, my God, there were so many people that my coat rack collapsed. It was wall-to-wall, shoulder-to-shoulder. It was fun, but it was very stressful.

SPENCER: Nice. I think my most challenging event was, I threw a fight club event. Because, for my social experiments group, we're never allowed to repeat the same format; that's the rule. And so we have to keep coming up with new things to do every single time. And I was like, "Well, we've never thrown a fight club," so obviously we have to throw a fight club. But I was like, "Okay, where do you host a fight club? How do you not get sued? How do you prevent your guests from being too badly injured?" And so there's a lot, there's a lot. It's complicated.

NICK: But that sounds amazing. So did you actually do it? Did people actually fight?

SPENCER: Yeah, yeah. What I did is, I created a legal form people had to fill out in order to come, which got them to agree that they would abide by a certain set of behaviors. I brought in a referee who's a professional martial artist. I came up with a list of many different ways to fight; none of them were super dangerous, but they ranged from moderately dangerous down to not at all dangerous, so that it would be inclusive. For example, rap battles were a type of fight, but also boxing. [laughs] And we established a clear set of rules. I found a location to do it where it was not in my home because I was worried about liability. And yeah, no serious injuries, I was happy to say. I did have organ pain for like three days after, and I was slightly worried I was just going to keel over at one point. One guy had some breathing issues. But yeah, other than that, nobody got hurt. [Nick laughs]

NICK: For first-time hosts listening to this, please do not, out the gate, do a fight club.

SPENCER: Yeah, that's definitely not your first ten events either, for sure. [laughs] So yeah, it was a lot of fun.

NICK: There's another gathering that I want to do. I'd be curious if you've done this where, every ten minutes, somebody at random has to leave. For some reason, that just sounds interesting or weird to me.

SPENCER: I'd really like to do an event at some point where everyone is in on it except one person. You know what I mean?

NICK: Yes, yes, oh, my gosh, yes.

SPENCER: I also think it would be super cool if it was layered. So everyone thinks that everyone's in on it except one person, except that there's multiple levels of that happening simultaneously. [laughs] So there's different groups that think that they're more in on it than the other groups. I don't know how to pull that off, but it's in the back of my mind.

NICK: I've done a fair bit of advanced hosting where I'll have surprises at the party, like surprise entertainers or something like that. And that's a nice little host trick to have in your book. I think it's pretty common, but it's nice.

SPENCER: What's your strategy there? Just people you know who are talented, and you get them to agree to perform something or participate in some way?

NICK: Yeah, yeah. I think one of the easiest things for somebody, if you have the budget, is to hire a magician who's at the party and just does sleight of hand stuff around the room. It's not really announced, but they're doing it as they're meeting people. I've been hosting a lot of meetups for people with very large social media followings. So I do these million-plus creator meetups. And at a recent one, I hired a hip hop improv comedy troupe who busted out beatbox freestyle rapping about people that they had met at the party, and that absolutely crushed. Oh, my God. It blew everybody's mind. It was one of those moments where everybody whips out their phone and they're filming stuff. I like those little surprises. Very advanced move, though. I tend not to speak about those things because I find that, for new hosts, it just blows them out of the water. They're like, "I could never do something like that." Yeah, it's a little intimidating.

SPENCER: One of the things I most like about hosting is, I've got my really close friends, but there's this reasonable set of people. I'm like, "Oh man, I wish I saw them more," but I don't necessarily have an easy way to do that. Maybe it's hard to schedule them and so on. And so by throwing events, I can bring these people into my life more often, that I really enjoy, but where they're not my very best friends who I'm going to be scheduling something all the time.

NICK: Yes, that's like the number one reason to host, is to keep that network of loose acquaintances or loose connections, whatever you call it. It's those people who you might not schedule a one-on-one with but you still want in your life; you still appreciate them. That is a great reason to host.

SPENCER: I've heard you talk about the strength of weak ties. What does that mean?

NICK: For me, it means having a healthy network of people who know of you and you know of them. I think there have been studies that show that the biggest and best opportunities in life come, not from our closest connections, but from people we almost barely know. Whether that's new jobs or new romantic relationships or new business opportunities, it comes from this network of acquaintances, the random person you met at a conference three years ago who happened to post something on LinkedIn. I've found that, by hosting events, it really helps me keep that network warm and in touch, keeping me top of mind to them by hosting events and inviting them to things.

SPENCER: It's something that I do pretty regularly; I meet someone that I gel with — let's say, at a conference, or just a friend of a friend — but I don't necessarily think, "Oh, this person's likely to be a really close friend," like I really want to get to know them. Then I'll just say, "Hey, is it cool if I add you to my list for events?" And almost always, they say, "Sure," and it's just a really nice way to get them back in your orbit.

NICK: It's a perfect way. Who doesn't want to be invited to a cool event? It's one of the things I tell people. It is so easy to say to somebody, "Hey, I'm hosting a little happy hour in a month. Can I send you the info when I do it?" That is such an easier ask than, "Oh, I'd love to meet up and pick your brain," or, "We should get coffee sometime." The reality for most people is they're so busy that, to schedule to get coffee with somebody, it's actually quite complicated. And it's a lot easier to invite these people to an event where they're going to get value from meeting other people. It's just a lot easier to say yes to, in my opinion.

SPENCER: Absolutely, yeah. And it definitely avoids some of the awkwardness of... Asking someone for coffee can be fraught because there can be different expectations. They might think they're being asked for a date, all kinds of things like that.

NICK: It's a great way. I've probably met hundreds, if not thousands, of people, and I've never had somebody say, "No, please don't invite me to a cool event." It's just a really easy way to add them to your orbit. I hear constantly from people all the time that they have long lists of people that they say things like, "Oh, we should get coffee sometime," "Oh, we should get dinner sometime." But the reality is, they never get around to it. The benefit from hosting an event is, in the same amount of time it takes you to watch a movie on Netflix, you can build relationships with 15 to 20 people. You can invite those people into your world and into your orbit, and you get to be seen as a leader. You are the host. So this is a really beautiful way to be seen and to build your network. If that's important to you, then this is a great way to do that.

SPENCER: Another thing that you and I have in common is, we both write regularly, and I find that writing also serves a similar role. It obviously does other things as well, but one thing it does is, I'll meet someone, we'll share social media with each other, at each other, and then at some point, there's a pretty good chance they'll see some writing I did that I posted on social media, and it'll keep me in their mind. And then next time we meet, maybe it's two years later, they'll have maybe read a few things I've written, and they'll have a sense of who I am, and then we'll actually have a much greater connection when we meet the second time.

NICK: Oh, my gosh, big time. You and I are probably more similar than others in that many people have almost like a parasocial relationship with us; they know a lot more about us because we are prolific publishers through our newsletters and through writing, and it's nice.

SPENCER: I think both hosting events and writing on social media and making a habit of adding people to your event list and adding people to your social media when you meet them, it really lets you create a network that's much bigger than you can maintain otherwise. You just don't have enough time in the day to actually have that big a network, but these mechanisms are pretty scalable in a way that one-on-one communication isn't.

NICK: Do you ever add people to your newsletter after you meet them? Not in a way that's malicious, but just sending life updates or things like that?

SPENCER: I don't because my newsletter is not so personal; it's more just about ideas. But if we clicked, I'll ask them if they want to be on my event list.

NICK: Yeah. I tell people that they should consider sending an annual newsletter out to their friends and acquaintances. You don't need to use fancy software. You literally can just send them all in bcc to just list an update of what you're working on, cool things you've done. I do think it's important that, if you're going to do this, that you need to add value through that newsletter. One way to do it is to list off some of the best media that you've consumed. "Hey, here's some of the great books I've read, great movies that I've watched. Here's some cool ideas I've been thinking about." Don't just be a diary, right? "Dear Diary, I'm so sad." "Hey, everybody. I haven't heard from you in a year. Here's what's up." But trying to add value first and foremost. Sending that kind of annual newsletter is a very, very powerful thing, and that's how I started my newsletter, by just calling it my 'Friends Newsletter,' and I'd send out an update maybe once a quarter, maybe twice a year, with just things I'd seen or cool stuff that I had come across. And it's been very helpful for me.

[promo]

SPENCER: I think that people often think of networking in a negative light. And I think there's a lot of reasons to do so, because networking can feel almost manipulative, where you're going into a conversation with a certain goal. You're not really treating a person as a person of value. You're just thinking of them, "Well, what can I get from them?" I'm wondering, what do you think is a healthier way to do networking than going in with an agenda into conversations?

NICK: I think networking is a really dirty word these days, and it has gotten to be that way because people who embrace networking with a capital N are pushing business cards and sketchy deals. I think that, for networking, you really have to add value before you can ever think of asking something from someone. A good example of that is, about six months ago, a college student reached out to me on LinkedIn, and he said, "Hey, I noticed that you have your book out. There's a couple things I found that you could maybe do differently that might help you boost your book sales. Here are those ideas." And I was like, "Wow, this is really awesome. Thank you so much." And then he followed back up about two months later, said, "Hey, I'm coming to Austin. I noticed that you're doing some short form video. There's a friend of mine who's crushing it in short form. I'd love to share those ideas with you. It might be helpful for your book as well." This was such an amazing way for him to network, to get a meeting with me by adding value first. I was definitely incentivized to want to meet up with him, as opposed to all the people, I think, who reach out, "Hey, you've done such amazing things. I'd love to learn from you. Can I meet you for a cup of coffee?" That's a bad example of someone wanting to take, take, take. And I think he was a great example of giving before he asked for anything.

SPENCER: When I go into a situation where, let's say it's explicitly a business event, and so there's some sense in which the reason people are there is for business purposes; it's not just a social engagement. Obviously, in that kind of setting, it might seem like, well, okay, maybe networking makes more sense. But I found, even there, often the best thing to do is to really just try to find the people you gel with, where you just enjoy talking to them, and they enjoy talking to you. And then maybe you'll have some kind of business connection, but that's not the focus you have, even at the business event. And I'm wondering how you think about that.

NICK: Yeah, yeah, I think about it probably very similarly to you. I don't think about networking per se. Who can I meet? Who can I get value from? I guess networking makes the assumption that you will profit or do business with someone in some way. And I have never thought about hosting and building my network in that type of way. I think one example I could give is, lately, I've been wanting to create and connect with top creators, people who have very large followings online. These are people that get a lot of outreach requests to come to events. They are flooded with inbound and I have had to learn to really think about how I can laser target them to add value before I ask something of them, and the ask is usually to attend one of my events. And so I have been thinking a lot more about how I myself can add value to people before I make an ask to them.

SPENCER: How do you do that though? How do you even get in touch with a top creator such that you can invite them to an event?

NICK: There was an author recently that I wanted to connect with. I poked through his social media. I read through his newsletter. I saw, for example, in this specific instance, he had some questions about Substack, whether that was the right platform for him to list on his newsletter. And so I wrote a very targeted, value-rich email to him with my thoughts on that, and then explaining a little bit about my hosting and the events that I would maybe want him to come to. Here's another example. There was an incredibly famous person who I wanted to come to one of my events, and I spent some time to learn about them and to really write a very well thought out complimentary message to them. It was probably the best cold outbound I've ever done. And this person wrote me back, essentially saying, "Dude, I don't know who you are, I don't know any of your friends. I don't know what you're doing. But based on this, here's my number. Let's have a phone call." And that felt good. That felt good.

SPENCER: I remember being really tickled by your approach to picking people up at airports. You wanna tell us about that a little bit?

NICK: Yeah, this goes in the theme of trying to add value. When I notice that folks are coming to Austin, Texas, where I live now, I will volunteer to come and pick them up at the airport and drive them straight to their hotel. I think that's important because you're not like, "Hey dude, let's go get coffee or something." The Austin airport is one of those airports where you have to walk quite some way to go to where the lift or the ride shares are, and it's just a better experience to have somebody meet you there. And so it's a way for me to reach out. I've done it with some of my friends that have some notoriety, so I have those pictures available. I made a little blog on my website about it. And so I'll send a note to somebody. I say, "Hey, I saw you're coming to Austin. It's only 15 minutes for me. I live right near the airport. I'd love to meet you at the airport, and I'll drive you straight to your hotel." I'm not looking for anything, just a neat way for me to meet some cool people and add value to them with a VIP experience. And by doing that, I've gotten to spend quality time with some really interesting people.

SPENCER: It's such a fun little hack.

NICK: Yeah, I think it's just that idea of trying to add value before you try to ask something from somebody.

SPENCER: When you think about making intros, how do you think about that? Do you just introduce people when they remind you of each other? Or do you have a more strategic approach to it?

NICK: This just happened to me today. Somebody today set up an intro and they didn't ask me beforehand. This is the most bozo thing; you've got to do the double opt-in intro.

SPENCER: I agree. [laughs]

NICK: Yeah, that's just so important. How do you do it? What is your plan or what's your policy?

SPENCER: Yeah. I always do double opt-in. Actually, my approach is, I first ask the person I think is less likely to want the intro. I say, "Hey, this person, I think you might find it interesting to meet." And then if they say, "Oh yeah, I'd be happy to meet them," then I'll ask the other person to make sure both sides want to meet. I'm pretty stingy about intros, in the sense that my bar is pretty high to introduce people. Maybe it's too high, but I think it's just because I've had so many intros that I was like, "I don't really get why I'm being introduced to this person." So by the time I introduce someone, I want to be pretty confident this is going to be a worthwhile connection.

NICK: Oh, so you're talking about doing the intros when you originate the idea of saying, "Oh, you know what, I think these two people should know each other."

SPENCER: That's what I was referring to. But yeah, you mean when someone asks me for an intro, that's what you're you're talking about?

NICK: Yes.

SPENCER: Ah, yes. In that case, well, first of all, there are some cases where I would turn it down if I don't feel like it's value additive to the second person. I might just say, "Yeah, you know, I don't think I'm the right person to make that intro," or something like that. But where I do think it's potentially value additive to both people, I'll reach out to the second person and say, "Hey, here's the situation. Would you be interested in meeting this person? Here's why they want to meet," and get their approval.

NICK: One small, gentle way that I turn those down or slightly defer them is, if somebody's trying to reach out to somebody famous who I happen to know, I will ask them, "Hey, have you tried to tweet at them? Have you tried to DM them? Have you tried to send them an email?" And I'll generally say, "Try all of those things, and if you still don't hear back from them, then let me know and let's see if it'll make sense." And I tell you, 99 times out of 100, they haven't done those things yet — which makes sense; I understand that they're looking for a warm intro — but that's a more gentle way that I will sometimes turn those down.

SPENCER: How often do they come back to you and say, "Okay, I tried those things. Now can you make the intro?"

NICK: You know what? I cannot think of a single time that that's ever happened, and maybe they just get the hint that I'm not necessarily open and willing to do the intro. But I can't think of a single time that they've come back and said, "Hey, I did all these things. Now can you help me?"

SPENCER: Do you have a problem with lots of people asking you for things?

NICK: I think that that's a problem of privilege. And if I had that problem, I wouldn't say it was a problem. I do occasionally have people that I have known for a while — as I'm sure you do — who have moments of celebrity, and there are people who will want to reach out to them, and I see it as my role to shield them from those things.

SPENCER: Do you find it difficult to say no when people ask you for favors? Because someone like yourself, who just has a really wide network, has a lot of newsletter subscribers and so on, presumably there are going to be people reaching out regularly, saying, "Hey, could I meet you for coffee?" It's not just intros, but just maybe wanting to connect with you even.

NICK: One thing that I've done is, I wrote an article called "Call Me Anytime," and I basically never schedule things on my calendar. And so I won't do random phone calls, I won't do random coffee meetings, but I will tell people, "Hey, here's my phone number. Call me anytime," and then link to the blog post on my website, which says, "Look, here's the deal. I live my life in a very unstructured way. I'm happy to accept your quick phone call. I accept almost all calls from random numbers. Do this. If I don't answer, here are the best times that I'm generally available." I will tend to do that, so when somebody says, "Hey, I'd love to meet up for coffee," then I'll write back. I'll say something like, "Yes, absolutely. Let's do a quick phone call first, and let's just have a chat," and I'll send my phone number and a link to the blog post. And I find that generally, that helps and protects me from having a lot of random meetings.

SPENCER: Do you get a lot of such calls?

NICK: I do get calls. I got two today. So I do get those calls, yeah.

SPENCER: Before we finish up, I wanted to ask you about a fun thing that you did recently, which is your blind date in Tokyo. Can you tell us about that?

NICK: Oh, my God, it was amazing. I haven't really talked about it online, but I could talk about or address... It was a very personal experience. I was bored one night, and I just said, "Hey, I'd love to go back to Tokyo but I don't want to go by myself. Does anyone want to go on a blind date? Meet me in Tokyo next weekend. I will pay for everything. I'll get you your own hotel room. But you should have a passport, know how to ride a bike, and think that blonde guys with glasses are mildly attractive and be willing to film silly videos for my social media." And I just let it rip online before I went to bed, not thinking much, kind of coming from an act of desperation. I had been to Tokyo last summer, and I spent nine days there by myself. I love the city, but I left very, very lonely and feeling very, very isolated. And I literally wrote on my blog afterwards. I said, "I love the city, great experience, but I don't want to go back by myself. I'd love to go back with a friend or with a date". So I put that out on a Tuesday night, went to bed wondering if I'd be roasted or what. Then I woke up and I was pleased to see that it had a very positive response. And within the next 24 hours, it just really went viral. And I had hundreds of women applying and sending me the most beautiful messages and applications. I ended up choosing someone, really, within 48 hours, and then we met in Tokyo about a week later, and it was amazing. It really captured the hearts and minds of a certain section of the internet. I had over 20 million impressions and had lots of interview requests from the BBC and People Magazine and Washington Post. I turned them all down, but each day, I was writing these little diary notes and entries of how the date was going. And it was amazing and even better than I wrote about. It was awesome.

SPENCER: Why do you think it captivated people so much?

NICK: I think people want to believe that the internet can be a good place where people can meet others and maybe fall in love. And I think that this story was very wholesome, and it captured the imagination of those people.

SPENCER: It's interesting because, if you'd asked me what would happen if you did that experiment, I could definitely imagine a world where people are like, "Oh, that's creepy. Stay away. It's scary. You're gonna be alone with this guy. You don't know anything about him." But it seemed like a lot of people viewed it much more positively and much more as an exciting thing. What do you think the reason for that was?

NICK: That surprised me, and I think it surprised a lot of my friends as well, of how overwhelmingly positive the response was to it. I think there were certain guardrails that I put in. Number one, I live a very public life online. You can find out a lot about me. It sort of reduces the weirdness of a stranger. Number two, the fact that I got a separate hotel room in a separate hotel for this individual who came, that there was no expectation of anything. And then I think the way that I shared it, in being very vulnerable with my feelings and my nervousness and my excitement and these feelings that we were having in this personal diary type entry. It was a very wholesome story.

SPENCER: If I recall, you ended up extending the trip. Is that right?

NICK: We did. We did. We had planned for the trip to meet on a Thursday night and to leave on Sunday night. And we ended up having so much fun that we stayed two or three extra days. It was amazing.

SPENCER: It's funny because you could imagine that just going horribly wrong. [laughs] You just don't click at all. It's just awkward. But then again, you're in Tokyo. You could probably have a good time there with a lot of people.

NICK: We did. We did. We really had the wind at our sails in the support of the internet and being in an amazing city together and experiencing what was really just a whirlwind affair. Truly, truly, one of the best things that I've ever done.

SPENCER: Final question before we wrap up. You have this idea that you mentioned that, to meet interesting people, you have to do interesting things. Can you tell us about that?

NICK: Yeah, I think that everybody is competing with a lot of different things for attention, and that, as we get older, we're a little more protective of our time and our calendars, and that the best way to meet people that are very, very interesting or very, very successful or very, very smart — whatever that is to you — is to be someone who is doing something interesting yourself. I have found that the best way to be interesting is to host a well-run event that almost anyone can do because the bar is so low for hosting a good meetup or a happy hour, that if you can simply learn how to do that — to add a little bit of structure, to facilitate, to make introductions — that is the way that you can add value immediately and quickly into a large number of people. That probably lines up with your own experience, I'd imagine, that you want to meet people who are writing, who are doing cool things, I think. Is that right, Spencer?

SPENCER: Oh, absolutely. Are you getting at, that you can just be a decent host and actually add a lot of value and people want to know you? You don't have to go climb Mount Everest, or have some crazy hobby, or travel the world?

NICK: That's the number one way that I've found that people can be interesting, is to host a well-run event. I think you can do a lot of different things, like you said: climb Mount Everest, run some ultra-marathons, whatever. But the bar is so low to host a simple happy hour, that you can do a few little things to make it interesting and to add value. And once again, the value that you're adding by hosting an event is introducing people to those that they've never met. By hosting an event like I advocate for, where there's name tags, where there's a round of intros, you get to help your attendees really get value by attending a well-run event.

SPENCER: Nick, thanks so much for coming on.

NICK: Thanks for talking about events.

[outro]

JOSH: A listener asks: What are your thoughts on the meat eater problem?

SPENCER: The meat eater problem, as I understand it, is the argument that, suppose you really care about the suffering or death of animals, and you also care about the suffering and death of humans. Well, suppose you go and you save the life of a human, but there's a really good chance that human would have been a meat eater. Then the argument goes that, well, by saving that person's life, you're effectively causing them to eat more meat. And so by saving the human life, you might cost a whole bunch of animal lives, maybe hundreds of animal lives. And so the question is, suppose you care about both of these things, is it ethical to save a human life under that circumstance? I think here, there's really two different ways that are important to look at this. The first is on the empirical question. If you save a human life, what is the causal effect of that? And that's a complicated question, and you could look at things like, if they are likely to be a meat eater, and how many animals they are likely to eat. And even more importantly, what is the impact of that on animal production? Because if you're thinking about suffering or animal lives lost, the question is about how it affects production of animals. So that's one thing. It's the empirical question. You can analyze that, and I don't know how that turns out, and it probably depends on a lot of factors, like what country you're talking about and so on. The second question is a question of values. What do you value? How much do you value animal life? How much do you value human life? How much do you value suffering? How do you compare the amount you value suffering versus the amount you value loss of a life per se? How do you feel about a lost life that doesn't involve suffering? Is it the suffering you care about, or is it the loss of life, or both? And so I think, for a given person, there could be different answers to this question. First of all, what do they believe is true of the empirical facts? And second of all, what are their values? And in theory, if you know your values well enough, and you knew the empirical facts well enough, you'd be able to come to a conclusion. But I don't think that conclusion is necessarily going to be the same for each person, depending on how their values pan out, and also depending on facts that I don't know well enough to comment on.